Pharmacists are NOT DOCTORS!

My PharmD is bigger than yours!

Wait, what?

AY!MEN! It's an inferiority complex. "Dr." pharmacists are all bummed they didn't go to medical school. They want respect for their education. Nine out of ten "Dr." pharmacists are conspicuous consumers, too. These are the pharmacists who insist on calling physicians by their first names, but refer to themselves as "Dr." They secretly think they know more than doctors. Problem is, they're NOT DOCTORS and they're acting like techs who think they could be pharmacists if only they were paid more. QUIT IT! Signed, Steph, PharmD

Now if we can get the fucking bone crackers to not call themselves "doctor," we'll be getting somewhere.

I know my 'handle' alone must be pissing you off.

Lawyers don't call themselves 'doctors' cause they're too busy calling themselves 'Esquire'.

There's a difference between "Physician" and "Doctor". Patients are probably the biggest advocates. When I was in retail for a short period of time (thank God...) patients came in calling me 'doc' all the time (without having the faintest idea of what my degree noted). I'm not a physician and I'm the first one to note that when folks ask, but I'm not ashamed to say tell someone I'm a doctor. Lord knows I went through enough didactic and experiential hell to earn it! BS pharmacists, competent as they certainly are (many even more so than a lot of PharmD's I know), clearly didn't go through as much didactic and experiential work. 4 vs. 6...hmmm.

I guess it's more a frame of mind. I round with physicians all of the time, and have trained medical residents for more than 7 years now, and not a one of them even hesitates to call me a doctor (and NOT because I asked them to). They respect the profession and realize that pharmacists aren't just 'lick and stickers' and insurance adjudicators anymore. But I know you'll just say I'm some nutty idealist 'circle-jerker' anyway. I'm sorry that the retail setting is sucking all of the life out of you... If you've got a PharmD, you obviously saw some redeeming point to it and you certainly must have known that the degree wasn't just a 'repeat of the BS years of pharmacy school'....Hell, atleast it certainly wasn't at my school. The profession of Pharmacy needs to start getting some respect for what we do, and what our potential could be. But it's only going to start happening when we start showing ourselves that respect. Does it HAVE to be by us calling ourselves 'doctors'? Not solely, but the American culture certainly does love titles don't they!?

Excellent analogy with PharmD vs. JD. You are quite correct that lawyers do not get called "Doctor" even thought their degree is "Juris Doctor." Physicians are doctors by time-honored tradition, as are Doctors of Philosophy.

However, in strictly formal academic circles, i.e., at a formal gathering or lecture, I think it is appropriate for Doctors of Pharmacy to give and receive the title. I am a Baccalaureate pharmacist, but if I had a PharmD, I would generally not seek to be called "Doctor."

Gotta love you dude! I'm not a pharm D and don't need to be one. It's not like I'm going to make more money with the "doctor of pharmacy" title...

There are lots of nursing doctorates out there too-Dr. Nurse. Lots of pompous professors of things like art history have Ph.D. 's and insist on being called doctor. The worst ot them all are psychologists who demand everyone call them doctor.

H-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s. I did a rotation at the VA many years ago where pharmacists called themselves doctors. As a matter of fact, they wore badges that stated they were 'Dr.' so-and-so.

The story went that the pharmacist in charge of the anticoagulation clinic actually BOARDED A PLANE and told the flight crew he was a doctor. Yup.

You guessed it - they CALLED HIM on the overhead PA when a man began having chest pain on the flight.

Apparently he and a dentist were the only 'doctors' on that flight.

This comment dedicated to the dear memory of American Airline's flight 1793 passenger #27D. Bet he wished there had been some 'real' doctors on his flight...

Some people I make call me doctor. My mother. Maybe the guy I'm feeling frisky with. Uppity management types. You know the drill.

It's fun for awhile, but then it makes you think of all those mean professors who substituted a shitty attitude for actual teaching skill, and you kind of drop it after awhile. Except for my mother. She will always have to call me doctor.

After graduating BS long time ago I found costs (financial, family, time) to continue to a MS were prohibitive, so opted for residency. But, in the 'new' job with the shmoozers and righteous PharmDs (with all their specializations) there was limited opportunity and time to continue gaining basic science knowledge without having to drop out of the workforce to return to school. Thank heavens for the non-trad programs. (I keep thinking that I should go for a catch-up rotation every few years or so to keep up, though!) In many work situations, without the PharmD I think pharmacists are limited, or may feel so, in opportunities to acquire and update basic knowledge--which ultimately benefits patients; and are at the mercy of 'old-cheese' bosses that got to their positions of seniority by schmoozing. PharmD programs nowadays are the ticket to open and more freedom of health information. Just think, in the time of less than half a lifetime ago, PharmDs probably know more (about pharmacology, pathophysiology, pharmacotherapeutics, etc.) than MDs back then. In developing countries, a 'barefoot' doctor is often without formal training. Maybe it's an issue of inferiority, but I feel that patients would listen to me with more respect (translate: would seriously consider my advice) if I told them the best thing for their symptoms was rest, fluids, and salt water gargle, something (probably nAPAP) for aches and fever, with my PharmD information (attitude) than with my harried chain drugstore RPh badge. And, no, not once in my practice have I been anything other than my first name, except on the letters addressed to me from those I've requested information (and, my mother!).

Wait, are we supposed to be calling our pharmacists Doctors? I just call mine by his first name.

I'm so confused.

What does the D in PharmD stand for anyway? Pharmacy Dude? I'm seriously curious, and no, I'm not a total moron.

I triple love this blog.

Nice slap at the retail folks, Dr.Pharmacist. This is what I read: You little people who took the /retail/ jobs, YOU I can understand not getting the Dr. title, but *I* am a /clinical/ pharmacist and it gives me a giant boner when doctors call me "Dr." But when I was in retail, all those highly-educated ass-kissing patients called me "Dr.", well, THAT prompted me to seek a job that matched the respect I am due. Why, *I* did /didactics/ like a real doctory doctor. I mean. I'm not sure if the physicians I work with fall into hysterics when they go around the corner after calling me "Dr." but it sure makes me feel like a total bad-ass. At least someone in this world respects my degree. Cause the guys at Home Depot don't give me any respect and it pisses me off.

Being called "Dr. Whatever" is a result of attaining a doctorate degree. Its a title given out of respect of the education a person receives... I don't think anyone with a PhD in history is trying to do a medical exam on anyone. Being called doctor is one thing... Being a doctor of medicine is another.

Being called a doctor is one thing. But I think the point here is PharmD's who introduce themselves as "Doctor" or insist on being called "Doctor". Seriously, get a life. The statement "I went to see my 'doctor'" in healthcare terms translates to "I went to see my physician". It does not mean pharmacist, or even dentist, and it never will-even though those professions hold doctorate degrees. I am going to school to become a PHARMACIST, not a doctor (M.D.), and as TAP said, I am the first to correct anyone who calls me a doctor-in-training. I am a student Pharmacist, get it right, I don't settle for less.

Doctor of Pharmacy meant something back in the 70's when only a handful of those with a BSPharm went MANY more years of didactic (not 4 vs. 6). Now it's all together different. All pharmacy schools graduate Pharm.D.'s since 2000. The retail, the hospital, the LTC facility, and EVEN those fucks in the ivory tower of "clinical" pharmacy have the same degree. (I've worked for a short time in all of these so far)
Now remember boy's and girl's and the rest of you, the degree is not what the boss pays you for in pharmacy IT'S THE FUCKING LICENSE!
Being one of those "Pharm.D's" I may have a leg to stand on. Physician's first out of school (like some Pharm.D's I know too) want to be "Dr. xxx; it gets them off. After a while they calm down (some at least) and you can have a professional relationship as colleagues. Some of us (at least "me" if no on else) mocks the hell out of the "Dr. Xxxx Pharm.D.'s. that's how I get my rocks off!
BTW I find it flattering when patients and colleagues call me doctor, but that's where it ends.
For those out there that have been out of school about six months here's a tip, or three.
1. Pharm. D (Doctor of Pharmacy) is a degree, nothing more. It gives you NO pharmacist privilege's with out a state license.
2. BSPharm's have more experience (they have seen more) than those of us not out of school for at least ten years, seek their wisdom. Experience is a way better teacher than some jackass in a classroom.
3. Calling yourself Dr. can get you in more trouble than you bargain for in the "real world" (see non-Drpharm comment above)

Good god the lunacy just keeps going on. Lets look at reality. PharmD's are given for a couple of reasons. 1. degree envy. 2. more money for the ivory towers of educational institues. Gee-if a podiatrist or a chiropractor call themselves doctor why can't a PharmD? The fact is nobody raised a ruckus when pharmacy school went from 4 to 5 years-so don't get too impressed with 6 years. When they bump it to 8 years the majority of Pharm double Ds will still be working for Wallyworld and giving away $4 Rx's. So just dust off that diploma and tell the boss its not in a PharmD's job description next time your asked to do something beneath your PharmDignity

OK, the problem here is in the origin of the word "doctor." A doctor originially meant "teacher." That is because the first doctorate degrees meant that you were supposed to pass on your higher knowledge. So in essence the PhD's were the first "doctors." The MD meant that the only "doctor" most people saw was the medical doctor. Thus the major association with the word "doctor" is now a physician. However, in the strictest defination of the term anyone with any accredited doctroral degree has earned the prefix Dr.. That is true of someone with an MD, EdD, PharmD, DDS, PhD, or anything else.

That being said, I will never have anyone call me Dr. soandso, and I will never have anything but the utmost respect for B.S. pharmacists who have much more expierience than me and thus much to teach me. I will however fill in the "Dr" bubble on anyform that asks.

I am a pharmacy student born of an RPh mother. I have the numbers of at least 10 PharmDs but every time I have a question I call my mother or one of her co-workers (mostly RPhs) and more often than not they explain it a hell of a lot better than my younger "Dr." teachers. It's really experience that is the teacher that much is evident.
But on a side note the pharmacy students that start calling themselves "Dr." early or "PharmD candidate" really make me want to vomit and slam my... no their head into a desk.

I wrote about this a while back. I will never ever call myself doctor.

http://pharmacymike.blogspot.com/2007/07/ode-to-pharmd.html

I posted pretty much the same over at drugmonkey's site, but you deserve it too. A PharmD is a doctoral degree the same as an MD is a doctoral degree. Its interesting, neither are from the root of the title, or PhD. In a technical sense, MD's are not doctors either. Hows about that for truth in nomenclature?? If you research this, you'll find that physicians adopted the title doctor to promote a scientific sense of research/mastery at a time when the leading treatments included blood letting and skull cracking. True story. Its taken pharmacy a couple hundred years longer, but apparently somebody decided to do the same. Then cheapened a useful degree by making it the entry level degree for every spatula holding modem jockey in retail as well. The same kind of thing holds true for dentists, optoms, veterinarians, etc.

A friend of mine recently graduated chiropractor school. She says they actually tell them to use the title doctor in casual company to promote a sense of dignity and respect for their profession. Wow. Shouldn't it be to denote their mastery of a set body of knowledge?? In my opinion, leave the titles at work. In the community everybody gets to use their first name.

As for the hierarchy, Masters and PhD are considered higher degrees than either the MD or PharmD. MD/PharmD are not true graduate degrees- no thesis or dissertation required. Do a little Wikipedia to confirm this, and you'll find the PharmD listed as an undergraduate professional degree- do the same for MD and guess what, its the same. It goes on to discuss the history of the title, and when the rip of from the academic title had its roots, back about 1200 AD.

As for me... I am a PharmD. I dont touch drugs, prescriptions, or insurance cards. I round daily on a 25 bed floor. The hospital supplied lab coat says "Dr.", and thats what they call me- presumably out of respect for what I bring to the table. My mom calls me by my first name, as does everyone else in casual company- except for my brother, who calls me shithead.

Maybe the inferiority is wrong or not, but 'Steph's' reply after mine seems directed toward me. I am not slamming the RPh. (That is what allows me and every other pharmacist to practice in the US!) I am suggesting (albeit strongly) that pharmacists need to keep up to date to avoid fobbing off patients simply because we are 'too busy'. Because I graduated BS many, many years ago, basic science knowledge has increased a lot. Heck, when I first took bacteriology, the idea of recombinant DNA technology with E. Coli, or even cleaving proteins off pig insulin DNA were fanciful 'IDEAs'. I never heard of apoptosis, and we brewed and cultured micro-organisms in lab to narrow down their identity; assessing and acquiring drug information from the internet was unheard of, and discussion of ethics was head in the sand (what we didn't know, we couldn't say anything about). Can we get all these new waves of info in 12 CE per year? I don't think so! I worked in hospital many years where there were a few opportunities to rub elbows with specialized clinicians, scientists, new pharmacists and physicians! Updating basic science such as canned fed in school is well-nigh impossible in the harried RPh world, even with 12 CE programs in December! I take my own pride in the PharmD. It's an accumulation of book-learning (and practice where I use the book-learning) and it has opened the door to obtaining a wealth of knowledge, getting past schmoozers that would have all of us still content to lick and stick, and tell the inquiring patients to just go look on aisle 3 for suchandsuch.

St. Louis College of Pharmacy graduated its last B.S. students in 2005. FYI.

We have a pharmacist who graduated around that time with a Pharm.D. and even before he got his license, he told our oldest pharmacist, who graduated in 1965, that he (Mr. 1965) didn't know what he was talking about since he didn't have a Pharm.D.

Mr. 1965 is a pretty laid back guy but he gave Mr. Pharm.D. a piece of his mind, and then some.

We have accepted that Mr. Pharm.D. is simply an arrogant know-it-all and that's his personality.

When I worked in retail, I never got over the people who wanted me to diagnose their skin rashes over the phone. I told that story to a woman I know who is a dermatologist, and she just rolled her eyes.

I still contend that the AACP completely fucked the profession when requiring a so-called doctoral degree as the entry-level qualification for pharmacy. For all the bullshit in the AJPE, the real reason for the change was so that Rx schools could charge a doctoral tuition - and for an extra year, no less! The pharmacist shortage, especially in rural and other underserved areas could easily be fixed by reinstituting the BS in pharmacy - continue to let folks who want to pursue a PharmD. But, please, lay off the "Doctor" shite.

I've also been a huge advocate of the value of pharmacy in medicine and public medication management (I am not an RPh or PharmD), but the uppity attitudes of some PharmDs undermine the true values of the profession.

I'm a PharmD student, and I can't imagine asking normal people to call me "doctor." I can, however, imagine it coming in handy when dealing with the pompous assholes or idiot nurses who don't like the answers you give them.

I also think that it's completely reasonable for someone who has a 6 year degree and two or three years of residency to want the title. I'm just not pompous enough to care.

Wow! You guys really have strong feelings about this topic... no wonder our profession is divided so! Heck, in the East coast states, some pharmacists tack on P.D. to the end of their name (for Pharmacy Doctor)... and that's without a PharmD! Really, it doesn't matter if you have a PharmD or a BS (I have both)... it only matters how good you are at your job. I have worked with some of the dumbest and laziest Pharmacists out there as well as some of the smartest and most hard working. And the truth is: It doesn't matter what degree you have... it's how you perform your job. So quit griping about how high and mighty your PharmD is (it's not) or how you should be "grandfathered" into a PharmD (you didn't do the time so you don't get the dime!). Focus instead how we are being replaced by Nurses, Nurse Practitioners and PA's for the jobs we are experts at - Drug knowledge and application!

Steph,

Sorry you feel that way. It was not what I intended. I never demand respect because that's the surest way of not getting it.

There are definitely different levels of knowledge certain pharmacists possess and some I would agree deserve to be call a doctor. Maybe not in the retail sectors, but there are definitely some highly skilled and knowledgeable clinical pharmacists who are badass, especially in some university and hospital settings. Let's not all be so offended and belittle these professionals and the titles they deserve. Just because you don't see yourself as one doesn't mean they don't exist.

MedicineMan:

Very well put....

Good discussion. And to go off on a tangent
I'm going to quote your posts on English language
adequacy on comp.risks in connection with the
Materna/Matulene fiasco, which I haven't found
discussed on any of the pharmacy blogs.

I agree with the spirit of what's being said. But I think you're using the wrong term.

A PharmD IS a doctor. However, having a doctorate does not make you a physician.

PharmDs are doctors, but they are most certainly not physicians. (but I agree that pharmD that insist on being called doctor need to pull their heads out)

This is totally a joke with who gets to be called doctor. I know so many people that have their MDs that want to be called Dr. so and so and his wife. There are tens of thousands of entrepreneurs with only a bachelor's or high school education that I have 100 fold more respect for. These PHDs need to get real and get off their power trip. Anyone, can get their PHD. Anyone can get their MD. It's the funding for it. I rather be an entrepreneur and make 100 times more than a doctor by creating something out of nothing. That's something to get respect for. Creativity, ingenuity, risk-taking, entrepreneurship. Few PHDs have this. So to all of you PHDs or Doctors of whatever, have a good night MR.

I've met some pharmacists who want to be referred to as "doctor". Who cares. I referred to my comp teacher as "professor" my freshmen year of college, and holy crap I got an earful. It took everything I had to keep from tearing into her about having a PhD in English, but these days it just doesn't matter. My boss is an RPh and every now and then he jokingly refers to me as doctor, but I've never introducted myself using that title.

Good post. I have a relative, who I have been close with most of my life, who is a very good PharmD (finished in 2002). However, he really flaunts the Dr. title. I just got a Christmas card from him and his wife. The return address was "Dr. and Mrs. XXXX" and it was addressed to me as "Mr. XXXX". I barely have met his wife and enclosed was one of those updates about their life over the past year. As a jealous and bitter single person, I could care less about reading via form letter how they chose to celebrate their 2nd anniversary. Anyway, I digress...

I'm an accountant and don't expect everything to be addressed to me as "Mr. XXX, C.P.A." I know an accountant who works for a bank and insists on putting the ",CPA" after her friggin initials next to her ham-and-cheese lunch sandwich order!! Absolutely ridiculous. It reeks of class titles like "Sir" and "Lord".

I believe that PharmDs, PhDs and JDs (had a couple of those professors for Business Law), are ALL legitimately doctors. They have, and you have as well, earned that. It is not easy work! However, to use that title in a way that doesn't have anything to do with your authority on something is the insulting part to anyone. Anytime I read in my local paper a "Letter to the Editor" about something like property taxes signed by a "Dr." somebody it's a little ridiculous - and I don't care if they are the most respected physician in the community. If they are an ob/gyn discussing pre-natal care, then the "Dr." title is appropriate. And, if someone with a PharmD is discussing pharmaceutics, then I think they have the right to use the "Dr." title too. It shows the fact that you have the knowledge and credibility. Otherwise, it's just snobbery.

to 'Rg Lutz':

not anyone can get a Ph.D. this year, for the last couple decades, and probably longer, there have been ~2000 people who received their Ph.D.s in chemistry, for example (see chemical and engineering news). you say it's about funding, but it's not. graduate students who are in a full-time science Ph.D. program usually receive tuition remission and either a teaching or research fellowship. what gets them in the program isn't the money, it's their grades. it's more feasible to say that more people can probably get a student loan for graduate/medical school than to say that anyone can receive a Ph.D./M.D.

you say: 'There are tens of thousands of entrepreneurs with only a bachelor's or high school education that I have 100 fold more respect for... I rather be an entrepreneur and make 100 times more than a doctor by creating something out of nothing. That's something to get respect for. Creativity, ingenuity, risk-taking, entrepreneurship. Few PHDs have this.'

i'm sure entrepreneurs have a place in our world by eventually marketing the resulting product, stocks, etc. but where did that product come from and how did it have the application it was intended to have? does it really matter that you would make 100 times better than someone? i doubt the majority of people with M.D.s/Ph.D.s do it for the money because the amount of work and preparation to receive this degree is probably incomprehensible to you. you talk about creativity, ingenuity and risk-taking, but that's what people with M.D.s do everyday -- it's called saving lives. people with Ph.D.s do the same thing as well -- and that's called innovation.

Does anyone know if the starting pay for Pharmacists differ (by how much roughly) for someone with a Bachelor vs. a PharmD degree?

obviosly whoever posted this is an is an idiot.. people get the title "doctor" not because they studied to be a MEDICAL doctor but because they went back to school for av averag e 8 years to get a doctoral degree

I'm a little late in commenting, but...

I install/train pharmacy software. We have several pharmacists that will get mad at me when I answer the phone to help THEM with their email (which we don't support) and I don't call them Dr...

One of them is a ... practicing witch-doctor. No joke.

Those of you who are trying to group pharmacists with others who hold the title of "doctor" are forgetting a very salient difference between the various professions. While physicians, dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, and pharmacists have earned a doctorate degree and are thus deserving of the title of "Dr. So-and-so", a pharmacist alone must never refer to himself as nor consider himself to be "a doctor".

Here's why:

Physicians, dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, and even chiropractors (who have no prescriptive authority) differ from pharmacists. They are trained to conduct examinations on patients, understand and diagnose diseases of the human body, and determine treatment that is effective AND as safe as possible for the patient. These are the tasks performed by one who calls himself “a doctor”. While the scope of diseases they diagnose and treat may differ from discipline to discipline, the methods and skills used to diagnose and treat are very much the same.

In stark contrast, pharmacists serve an indirect and ancillary (albeit important) role. They are not charged with the responsibility of conducting physical examinations, nor are they charged with the responsibility of understanding and diagnosing disease, nor are they responsible for determining the course of treatment for such diseases. (Seriously, didn't pharmacists EVER stop to wonder why they are not able to prescribe medications despite knowing so much about them?)

Someone who says, "I am a doctor" can say this because he performs various tasks in restoring health, all of them based on an intimate knowledge of the human body, its diseases, and the patient sitting before them. A pharmacist, on the other hand, where patient care is concerned, has a very narrow job to perform: know the drugs intimately, their effects and interactions, and make sure the patients are receiving medications that are safe for them to take. This means that pharmacists are essentially a checkpoint between the doctor’s prescription pad and the patient's mouth.

u punk!
do u knw what is D.Pharm???
Doctor of Pharmacy!
why do u call a PH.D holder a Dr.???and he is doctor of philosophy,
so if A person having PH.D degree can b called a doctor then y a D.Pharm degree holder cant call him self a DoctoR???

Dear DDS,
First off let me be frank, I do not have the manual dexterity to be a dentist. You guys have finger skill that I do not possess.

However:
Those were amazing comments from the respected practice of Dentistry...

My 5 years of working in communitry pharmacy taught me that patients hate their Dentists - not for inflicting pain but for performing painful procedures that were not necessary. What it also taught me was that DDS are the worst group of prescription writers. From inappropriate use of fentanyl patches to the inability to do simple math (it never failed - give something g4h multiply the total amount by 4, give it q6h multiply the total amount by 6...do they teach that in Dental school).

So now I work in a psych hospital and guess what? I do prescribe. I flat out HAVE to tell my doctors what to write for - they demand that service of me.

And "(Seriously, didn't pharmacists EVER stop to wonder why they are not able to prescribe medications despite knowing so much about them?)"

Seriously WE CAN IN NORTH CAROLINA. Colaborative practice agreement with a supervising physician in the same manner as a PA or an NP. See also Indian Health, VA, and some of the defense departments military hospitals.

And to the comments I read earlier about pharmacists not being able to refuse to fill an RX. I quite disagree, ALL HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS have not only the right but the duty to execute ONLY the orders that he/she feels are safe and correct for the patient. Yes that includes everyone - more nurses need to call the doctor by his/her first name and get over it. The care of the patient comes first

PharmD's can and should consider themselves 'doctors' because they are. What they are not is 'physicians' or you other 'ancillary' medical professionals (remember bid egoed physicians treat you non-MD's the same way as they treat RPh's, PT's and nurses...)